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Originally posted by Sineed:

Though if foods have gotten less nutritious over the last 50 years, why are kids bigger than ever? I don't mean obesity; I mean height. Seems commonplace these days for teenage boys to be well over six feet.[/QB]

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Originally posted by Stargazer:
I would recommend a powder multi-vitamin called Multi-Force by Prairie Naturals. As a vegetarian, who eats no junk food and a lot of greens, I still do not get my recommended dosage of vitamins thus the Multi-Force (also contains Minerals), which I mix in a blender with two scoops of Soy and/or Whey protein, Udo's essential oils, some pineapple juice, some soy yogurt and some fresh fruit (usually a banana for maximum potassium). This combination is recommended for active people, as the Multi-Force contains 21g of carbohydrates, which are essential for working out.

One of these shakes a day and I feel great the entire day, have much more energy and feel healthy physically.

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thanks for the tip! i will have to investigate...i forgot to mention i'm a student with little income to spare...

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Weird though how I still hear people say using Creatine is okay and natural. Yes our bodies produce creatine through eating meat but taking creatine in powder form to bulk up seems like cheating to me. Plus it's mainly water retention so I'm not sure what the point is really. Have you heard of this?

When I was in school, we were taught that taking large amounts of fat-soluble vitamins had the potential to be toxic (such as Vitamin A) and taking large amounts of the water-soluble vitamins made for expensive urine. In the past twenty years, I have seen or read nothing to moderate this opinion. Basically, I figure looking after your health in a general way is going to do more for you than popping bee pollen or cider vinegar, whatever.

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I'm wary of supplements, thinking of snake oil. When people start taking pills, or ingesting supplements, to make themselves lose weight, or gain weight, or gain whatever percieved benefit, I start to wonder strongly about who is benefitting, in the end.

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The placebo effect is enormous and necessarily has to be ignored by everybody who promotes supplementation.

My goal is not to bulk up, but to gain weight through adding muscle mass naturally. Your body needs carbs and protein in order for it to work at this level. I also prefer the defined look. To me the back is incredibly sexy and a nice defined back is even better. Likewise arms and abs.

Thanks for that info 500_apples. I'm not really aware so much of the effects of creatine. All I have heard is that it increases water retention but what you said makes sense.

Here is a good link on protein:

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There's many a pro level athelete (Shawne Merriman being most recent) who claim "tainted" supplements as a reason they've failed performance enhancing drug tests. Maybe they aren't all lying.

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Of course, that's where I get into discussions with vegetarians and vegans.

There's also quite a lot of evidence about organic veggies producing more nutritous food, but the lines aren't as clear, to me, and the gains not as obvious.

Taste is very subjective. Being honest, picky eaters make me cringe.

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Being honest, picky eaters make me cringe.

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I don't consider being a 'picky eater' a bad thing. After all, isn't that what you are advocating? Picky eating? Jesus what is with the people who have issues with other people's food intake? I eat what is healthy for me. Not to please you or other vegan\vegetarian haters. Meat is NOT healthy, especially the crap bought at grocery stores. No amount of propaganda from anyone is going to convince me eating anything without first doing research and deciding what is best FOR ME is an issue they need to be concerned with.

You don't see or hear me deriding meat eaters for all their shitty choices in food do you? How about I start in on people who eat eggs, and fast foods, and fill their bodies up with junk food.

For instance, now that my kids are older, they are less picky. That is to say, they are now less likely to treat me like a server in a fancy restaurant who will take the food back and switch it if there's too much pepper or if the peas accidently got mixed in with the mashed potatoes.

AND, because my kids are now less picky, I am finding it easier to make appropriate food choices because they are more willing to eat (or at least try) tofu, sweet potatoes, bok choy, and other healthy things.

Can someone suggest a link to an eating locally for dummies article, benefits and such? It doesn't strike me as self-evident that it's necessarily bad for fruits to come from california, florida... the only argument I can think is that invasive species destroy local ecosystems.

What do local eaters do for fruits/vegetables in the winter? Relatively local foods like stuff from latin america?

But it is hard to find local green vegs,tomatoes, etc in February. Also, local orange juice in Ontario?

So what's wrong with Florida orange juice.

Actually, I have the feeling I might be missing the point here, but for most stuff (food and otherwise) I try to buy local, and if I can't then US then elsewhere.

[ 20 February 2007: Message edited by: oreobw ]

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Originally posted by 500_Apples:
It doesn't strike me as self-evident that it's necessarily bad for fruits to come from california, florida... the only argument I can think is that invasive species destroy local ecosystems.

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Anything's possible when political conservatives are running the show. There's been tainted spinach from California to dirty water in Walkerton and Kashechewan.

Timeline: E. coli contamination in Canada

Winter\February veggie eating, and what should be availible "fresh": sweet potatoes, cabbage of different types and hues, potatoes, carrots, onions, squash... Roots crops, easily stored, likely with little refridgeration. I grow and eat a long storage cabbage that gets as big as bowling balls and keeps for six months or better. The outside layers might get mucky but they peel off easily. I also eat my own red onions until spring. I should grow my own carrots and sweet potatoes, and potatoes, but don't. I do freeze and preserve all kinds of food that isn't locally availible in the winter. Making preserves is a lost art, and it's very simple.

I do not buy hot house tomatoes. They taste like shit, for one thing, in comparison to the real outdoor deal, and growing tomatoes in a greenhouse in the winter does not make sense to me.

Eat locally, eat seasonally, buy whole foods. In southern Ontario, we are, weather permitting, only a couple months away from asparagus season. Follow the natural cycles of what's growing in your backyard (literally, or locally) and you'll be very surprised at the variety.

The reasons why people should concentrate on these types of eating patterns is simple, when you think about it. Suffice it to say, for now, that the Cali produce in our grocery stores (or the Washington state apples that drive me insane) are sold at a cost that does not reflec the true cost of getting that item into your grocery bag. If you're on the west coast, Cali produce makes sense. Cali produce in Toronto does not.

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The reasons why people should concentrate on these types of eating patterns is simple, when you think about it. Suffice it to say, for now, that the Cali produce in our grocery stores (or the Washington state apples that drive me insane) are sold at a cost that does not reflec the true cost of getting that item into your grocery bag. If you're on the west coast, Cali produce makes sense. Cali produce in Toronto does not.

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Why is the cost of Cali produce so low?

Ignorant answer: Probably agriculture is an easier profession in California. I mean, it's california, so I really doubt it's cheap wages. Are pesticides subsidized in California?

Labour not cheap in Cali? Not to be an enourmous dick, but you have to be kidding. Big agriculture, including the organic operations, in Cali is based almost entirely upon the modern day version of slave labour in the US: illegal Mexicans.

Even grown in Ontario produce is subject to a version of this. The migrant worker programs. 20 thousand of them in ag last year, I believe, with many more coming to many industries across the board very soon. Who's outsmarting whom here?

Your point about higher US subsidies for agriculture is more obvious, I'm surprised I forgot about that one. That means all things being equal american produce would still be cheaper. Are you taking a moral stand against taking advantage of the american taxpayer's spending decisions?

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Originally posted by Farmpunk:
Do we have a free market or a controlled market? As far as agriculture goes, I wish I knew.

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As soon as you bring in a minumum wage you have a controlled market. Then you need import restrictions to keep out cheap imports from a country with lower minumum wages. Then we have exceptions to keep trading partners and leftward leaning foreign leaders happy. Next farmers need income support. Then markets are flooded so we have production controls. Then we need quotas to stop big business getting rich. Then excess production is dumped cheaply overseas (sometimes free and called 'aid'), putting subsistance farmers overseas out of business.

I can only get canned salmon here, although starting this week the fishermen are bringing in fresh caught cod.