Author
|
Topic: Frank McKenna: Latest Liberal Messiah
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Sharon
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4090
|
posted 19 October 2008 09:53 AM
quote: I don't understand why the Liberals think McKenna (or Iggy, Rae, or Manley) would be a winner for them.
I suspect that one of the things they're looking for is a certain kind of personality. Frank is famously down-to-earth, friendly, funny -- even people who don't agree with his politics admit that he's really warm and likeable. (I know him quite well -- don't agree with his politics but have often enjoyed his company.) People in Fredericton love to recount that when he was premier, he walked to work every morning, stopping along the way to chat with anyone he met. And there are always the stories about how he answered his own phone in the premier's office. I think Bob Rae (unpopular as he is in many circles) also has that ability to connect with people. I don't see Iggy and Manley in the same way at all at all.
From: Halifax, Nova Scotia | Registered: May 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
janfromthebruce
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 14090
|
posted 19 October 2008 10:11 AM
quote: Originally posted by Sharon:
I suspect that one of the things they're looking for is a certain kind of personality. Frank is famously down-to-earth, friendly, funny -- even people who don't agree with his politics admit that he's really warm and likeable. (I know him quite well -- don't agree with his politics but have often enjoyed his company.) People in Fredericton love to recount that when he was premier, he walked to work every morning, stopping along the way to chat with anyone he met. And there are always the stories about how he answered his own phone in the premier's office. I think Bob Rae (unpopular as he is in many circles) also has that ability to connect with people. I don't see Iggy and Manley in the same way at all at all.
Actually Sharon, that was part of Rae's problem - he was great on the stump, but that one to one - well no.
From: cow country | Registered: Apr 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
V. Jara
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9193
|
posted 19 October 2008 04:15 PM
quote: Originally posted by Coyote: I said before on this or another board that McKenna is the Libs best threat. The majority of Canada's swing voters swing blue/red, and McKenna appeals to them. He has executive and business experience. He is an excellent communicator.McKenna is a far more attractive candidate for the Liberals than either Rae or Iggy, who have far too many "unfavourables", as they like to say these days.
Draft Paul Martin! Draft Paul Martin! 255 seat majority guaranteed!
From: - | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Maxx
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4819
|
posted 19 October 2008 05:46 PM
McKenna will not run. Apparrently he has been "testing the waters" for Liberal leadership since 1989!After losing the election with a policy wonk as a leader, I think the Liberals will want someone with charisma. That disqualifies Manley and McKenna. + I don't think many people are aware of McKenna's anti-abortion stance yet. That's a no-no.
From: Don't blame me... I voted Liberal. | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
|
West Coast Lefty
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3697
|
posted 19 October 2008 08:21 PM
quote: McKenna will not run. Apparrently he has been "testing the waters" for Liberal leadership since 1989! After losing the election with a policy wonk as a leader, I think the Liberals will want someone with charisma. That disqualifies Manley and McKenna.+ I don't think many people are aware of McKenna's anti-abortion stance yet. That's a no-no.
I agree McKenna won't run in the end - he is the Canadian Mario Cuomo in that regard. In addition to the points above, McKenna's French is apparently fallen into total disrepair. Also, the BQ and Quebec pundits won't let him forget that he was a key player in the demise of the Meech Lake Accord. He is very right-wing not only on economic issues but also foreign policy - as Canada's ambassador to the US, he famously said that Canada had already joined the US missile defence system even as the Paul Martin gov't was supposedly rejecting it [ 19 October 2008: Message edited by: West Coast Lefty ]
From: Victoria, B.C. | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
janfromthebruce
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 14090
|
posted 19 October 2008 08:36 PM
quote: Originally posted by West Coast Lefty:
I agree McKenna won't run in the end - he is the Canadian Mario Cuomo in that regard. In addition to the points above, McKenna's French is apparently fallen into total disrepair. Also, the BQ and Quebec pundits won't let him forget that he was a key player in the demise of the Meech Lake Accord. He is very right-wing not only on economic issues but also foreign policy - as Canada's ambassador to the US, he famously said that Canada had already joined the US missile defence system even as the Paul Martin gov't was supposedly rejecting it [ 19 October 2008: Message edited by: West Coast Lefty ]
He would be perfect.
From: cow country | Registered: Apr 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Stockholm
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3138
|
posted 19 October 2008 09:50 PM
quote: I think Bob Rae (unpopular as he is in many circles) also has that ability to connect with people. I don't see Iggy and Manley in the same way at all at all.
I don't know what gives you that idea. Rae can give a good speech in front of a crowd - but in person he is positively the coldest, most unpleasant and most aloof snob I've ever met in my life. He is utterly charmless and has the personality of a wet noodle. I suspect that the Liberals after this election will create a new myth that says that moving to the left and trying to regain support from the NDP and Greens was a failure and that meanwhile they lost the centrist suburban vote to the Tories. I predict that the next leader they choose will be a centre-right "business Liberal".
From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
ghoris
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4152
|
posted 19 October 2008 10:04 PM
Of course, the flip side of the coin is that there are a lot of Liberals who are convinced that to win they need to "unite the left" - ie win over NDP and Green voters. There is some credence to this theory - when Chretien was winning his majorities the NDP's vote was in single digits and the Greens weren't on the radar. Some of these left-Liberals have convinced themselves that Martin was perceived as a 'right-wing' leader which drove left-leaning voters to the NDP, Bloc and Greens in 2004 and 2006. Of course, once in power Martin veered left from where he was expected to take the party (to be fair, he was dragged there to some degree by the NDP), which cost him credibility with 'business Liberals'.I think it's safe to say that the next leader will almost certainly be an Anglo from Toronto, but the question is whether they hail from the 'left' or 'right' wings of the party, and I think that will be the great debate among Liberals - do they pick a left-leaning leader to try to 'win back' NDP and Green voters, or do they pick a right-leaning leader to take the fight to the Tories? [ 19 October 2008: Message edited by: ghoris ]
From: Vancouver | Registered: May 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
sofun
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11376
|
posted 20 October 2008 08:08 AM
quote: do they pick a left-leaning leader to try to 'win back' NDP and Green voters, or do they pick a right-leaning leader to take the fight to the Tories?[ 19 October 2008: Message edited by: ghoris ][/QB]
They'd be wise to try the latter. I'd say there are more votes to be taken from the Cons than from the NDP and Greens. Dion was the most progressive Lib leader in decades yet he didn't galvanize NDP or Green voters. About 10 days before this election most of the polls had the Lib-Con gap shrinking to about 5%. I don't think there's a lot of love for Stephen Harper among many who voted for him, and a more right-wing Lib leader will have a better chance of exploiting this. Someone at the Globe also wrote a column explaining why many many traditional Liberal supporters stayed home. If the economy struggles as expected someone like Manley or McKenna will only see their chances enhanced. Rae would get slaughtered in Ontario. Maybe the Libs can help McCain steal another election and then they can convince Obama to immigrate.
From: Barrie | Registered: Dec 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
JeffWells
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4761
|
posted 20 October 2008 09:20 AM
quote: Originally posted by St. Paul's Progressive: Rae could definitely take a lot of the NDP vote...look how poorly the NDP has fared against him in Toronto Centre.
But Toronto Centre is hardly representative, even for Toronto. Bill Graham won 52% in 2006. Rae won 53% in 2008. Outside the city I think Rae would be a disaster for the Liberals in Ontario, but I don't think they'll make another high-risk "lefty" choice after Dion.
From: Toronto | Registered: Dec 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
|
|
NorthReport
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 15337
|
posted 21 October 2008 06:49 AM
Poor Bob Rae and Michael Ignatieff. After all their disloyal efforts to dump Dion, which they finally achieved, along comes the new Liberal messiah McKenna. quote: Now that Stephane Dion has mercifully agreed to get lost, prominent Liberals and influential Canadians of all stripe are burning up the phone lines to Frank McKenna, practically begging the former New Brunswick premier to jump into the Liberal leadership race. "He is being utterly flooded with calls from all over the place," says one of McKenna's closest confidants.
http://www.ottawasun.com/News/Columnists/Weston_Greg/2008/10/20/7149456-sun.html [ 21 October 2008: Message edited by: NorthReport ]
From: From sea to sea to sea | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
|
|
Stockholm
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3138
|
posted 21 October 2008 07:37 AM
quote: I'm betting Stockholm's description of Rae would be totally different if Rae hadn't become a Liberal.
and you'd be wrong. I first met Bob Rae when i was a teenager in the late 70s when he first ran for Parliament and got elected. I found him to be humourless, miserable guy with zero people skills back then and my view has never changed. I didn't broadcast that when he was ONDP leader - but you don't have to look very far to find people who worked with him for 20 years in the NDP and never particularly liked him as a person. That is one of the (many) reasons why when he became a Liberal and ran for leader - there was virtually no one of any significance that followed Rae from the NDP to the Liberals. To get people to follow you like that - you need to have built up a personal following and have people who would crawl naked over a lot full of broken glass for you. Because Rae had such a miserable personality - no one felt close enough to him personally to want to follow him to the Liberals. He tried and tried. He phoned just about every New Democrat of any significance across Canada - ex-Premiers, ex-provincial cabinet ministers, everyone who was in the ONDP caucus when he was leader etc... he begged and pleaded hoping that ANYONE from the NDP would appear by his side when he announced he was running for Liberal leader. Everyone he called hung up on him.
From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Stockholm
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3138
|
posted 21 October 2008 08:15 AM
I've spoken to people who got calls.Name me anyone of any significance in the NDP who followed Rae into the Liberal Party and stood at his side when he announced he was running for Liberal leader? He would have given ANYTHING to be able to bring a few "scalps" from the NDP with him and show Liberals that he could bring people into the party. He failed.
From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
|
aka Mycroft
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6640
|
posted 21 October 2008 09:31 AM
quote: Originally posted by Stockholm: I've spoken to people who got calls.Name me anyone of any significance in the NDP who followed Rae into the Liberal Party and stood at his side when he announced he was running for Liberal leader? He would have given ANYTHING to be able to bring a few "scalps" from the NDP with him and show Liberals that he could bring people into the party. He failed.
I think one of his former cabinet ministers joined - Elmer Buchanan? And maybe one or two former backbenchers. But yes, I thought it was striking how few of his former caucus and supporters followed him into the Liberal Party. I don't know if Robin Sears officially joined the Liberal Party but he was shilling for Rae in the last leadership campaign. If Rae succeeded in pulling Sears out of the NDP then the NDP should be grateful. [ 21 October 2008: Message edited by: aka Mycroft ]
From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790
|
posted 21 October 2008 09:38 AM
quote: Originally posted by -=+=-:
And the Muslim citizens group Fatah runs actually put out a few press releases condeming Layton and the NDP. Not sure how much traction they got though.
Nearly none. Tarek is a goof. But none of this explains how someone so friendless and personally uncharasimatic became the leader of the ONDP. Why was he chosen, if all that Stockholm says is true about the early Rae years?
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
aka Mycroft
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6640
|
posted 21 October 2008 09:45 AM
quote: Originally posted by Cueball:
Nearly none. Tarek is a goof. But none of this explains how someone so friendless and personally uncharasimatic became the leader of the ONDP. Why was he chosen, if all that Stockholm says is true about the early Rae years?
Rae's an excellent public performer and quickly became a star after first getting elected to the House of Commons in 1978. The Ontario NDP looked to be on the precipice of power in the 1970s under Stephen Lewis. However, party fortunes sank under Lewis's successor, Michael Cassidy - in his one and only election as leader in 1981 the NDP went from the 27-28% popular support they enjoyed throughout the 1970s down to only 21% and lost 12 seats and the Tories regained their majority after 6 years of minority government. Cassidy was persuaded to leave and the NDP was in search of a star to take the party back to where it had been and beyond and party movers and shakers headhunted Rae as the perfect choice to do that.
From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
kropotkin1951
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2732
|
posted 21 October 2008 10:00 AM
quote: Originally posted by Cueball: But none of this explains how someone so friendless and personally uncharasimatic became the leader of the ONDP. Why was he chosen, if all that Stockholm says is true about the early Rae years?
The real burning question Cueball? You have descended so far down your negative path you can't discuss any topic without this kind of shit.No one but you cares and IMO you don't actually care either you just like to troll. And since I have a new fishing pole I think I will ride along in your boat. I think that McKenna or Ignatieff would make excellent leaders of the Liberal party. I think it would make them far more competitive as well. In BC the Liberal vote all but collapsed and it was the Cons who benefited the most from that collapse. I want the Liberals fighting to regain those votes lost to the Conservatives. Oh yeah and one of their lead players in BC this time was Rae. He carried the bash the NDP message to every NDP riding he could find. He didn't erode our support but the Liberals disappeared. Go Iggy Go win back that vote from the cons. Rae is going to finish off his "illustrious" career as a has been who spent his political capital (all three cents worth) trying to defeat the left and not the conservatives. The liberals deserve "progressives" like Bob and thank you very much for taking him off our hands so we can wash away the stench.
From: North of Manifest Destiny | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
alisea
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4222
|
posted 21 October 2008 10:51 AM
He was backed by the party establishment of the time - the Lewises, Caplan, Sears, etc. He ran a tough, well-organized, and (for the NDP of those days) slick leadership campaign. His main rival for the leadership, Richard Johnston, had support from a number of the sitting MPPs, and the leftish side of the party, but lacked the backing of The Powers That Be.I concur with Sharon - in small groups, with people he trusts, Bob can be funny, charming, a good conversationalist. He always struck me as fundamentally shy, which produced a demeanour that could be read, ironically, as arrogant. I think he believed deeply, at the time, that he was doing the right thing, and that he was truly committed to the NDP. And I think he went through an honest change of heart when he went to the Liberals. I feel sorry for him, in a way - no one will ever truly trust him. Some people can cross floors and the rancor doesn't last. Not Rae, not after the Ontario fiasco. It haunts us even here in Nova Scotia. The ONDP set us all back. I'm speaking as someone who never thought he was the best person for the job, by the way - I strongly supported Richard.
From: Halifax, Nova Scotia | Registered: Jun 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
farnival
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6452
|
posted 21 October 2008 11:37 AM
by reading this thread, i don't think people, particularly Liberals, really grasp the visceral animosity and hatred of Bob Rae in Ontario.during the election, whether it be out canvassing (toronto-danforth...and guelph when the by-election was announced), at the pub, at friends houses, out sailing with crew i didn't know, almost without exception, people who knew i was NDP (either through conversation or the button i was wearing), either started foaming at the mouth immediately, or in the case of self-admitted lefties or ndp'ers, appologised first, then started the foaming, nobody can stand the guy. it is almost universal, and not dependant on party affiliation. it is worth noting that during the Liberal convention, Rae polled lower than Dion amongst liberal convention delegates. i think he polled the lowest of all the candidates. personally i would like to see the Libs pick Ignatieff. he's right enough on the big picture stuff...foriegn and monetary policy ( i say monetary as i see him as a Martin Lib) that he would appeal to the rightwing libs that drifted to the Cons, and regardless of what you may think of his writing as an intellectual, would make mincemeat of harper in every way in public, debate or otherwise. he would likely also alienate the swing voter that shuffles back and forth between the Libs and NDP depending on how the wind blows and be less able to poach from us. i've said many times to Liberals i know, if they'd just picked Ignatief the first time round, we'd never have had to deal with Harper for longer than a few months.
From: where private gain trumps public interest, and apparently that's just dandy. | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790
|
posted 21 October 2008 11:53 AM
quote: Originally posted by kropotkin1951: The real burning question Cueball? You have descended so far down your negative path you can't discuss any topic without this kind of shit.No one but you cares and IMO you don't actually care either you just like to troll. And since I have a new fishing pole I think I will ride along in your boat.
Is that really the question? I thought the question was what acts of government made by any NDP government, in my living memory have actually lived up to the promise of their stated pre-election position. The Liberals are often accused, here, of running from the left and ruling from the right. Well the NDP has a legacy which it also needs to answer for. So rather than shitting your pants and lashing out at me when I, or anyone else, tries to get you to confront this legacy, why don't you just answer the question. How did a scurilous neo-liberal hack like Rae end up running the ONDP? Nothing you have said indicates that the NDP cares to prevent such occurences in the future, by confronting the issue head on. Rather, it seems you would just denounce anyone who brings the issue up. Hey! This is a thread about Frank McKenna. I didn't even bring the Rhodes Scholar up, but yes, its me who is trolling the board. I just reacted to more knee-jerk partisan denial. This answer is much more satisfactory and realistic and certainly less chauvanistic: quote: Originally posted by alisea: He was backed by the party establishment of the time - the Lewises, Caplan, Sears, etc. He ran a tough, well-organized, and (for the NDP of those days) slick leadership campaign. His main rival for the leadership, Richard Johnston, had support from a number of the sitting MPPs, and the leftish side of the party, but lacked the backing of The Powers That Be.I concur with Sharon - in small groups, with people he trusts, Bob can be funny, charming, a good conversationalist. He always struck me as fundamentally shy, which produced a demeanour that could be read, ironically, as arrogant. I think he believed deeply, at the time, that he was doing the right thing, and that he was truly committed to the NDP. And I think he went through an honest change of heart when he went to the Liberals. I feel sorry for him, in a way - no one will ever truly trust him. Some people can cross floors and the rancor doesn't last. Not Rae, not after the Ontario fiasco. It haunts us even here in Nova Scotia. The ONDP set us all back. I'm speaking as someone who never thought he was the best person for the job, by the way - I strongly supported Richard.
[ 21 October 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
farnival
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6452
|
posted 21 October 2008 12:07 PM
quote: Originally posted by Cueball:...How did a scurilous neo-liberal hack like Rae end up running the ONDP?...
that is the question, isn't it? i was appalled, looking on from Filmon's PC Manitoba, when Rae adopted "Filmon Fridays", and the slide went further down from there. ever since i moved to ontario in '01, all i've heard about when folks hear or figure out i'm NDP, is negativity about Bob. and from listening to Dosanjh in his post-election rants, the same question Cueball asked, should be asked of him too. how can you advance yourself to leader of any party, for the bulk of your career, and then when you jump ships out of opportunism, vigorously and angrily denounce the party you strove to lead, and expect to be taken seriously by anyone? the Libs better shelve these two hypocrites if they ever want to govern again.
From: where private gain trumps public interest, and apparently that's just dandy. | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
adma
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11856
|
posted 21 October 2008 04:49 PM
quote: Originally posted by aka Mycroft:
I think one of his former cabinet ministers joined - Elmer Buchanan? And maybe one or two former backbenchers. But yes, I thought it was striking how few of his former caucus and supporters followed him into the Liberal Party.[ 21 October 2008: Message edited by: aka Mycroft ]
Maybe it's blurred by quite a few of them *preceding* Rae into the Liberal Party--Giorgio Mammoliti, Tony Rizzo, Norm Jamison, Dan Waters, etc, and maybe you can throw in the Toronto-municipal Barbara Hall/Kyle Rae crew as well, sorta...
From: toronto | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Stockholm
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3138
|
posted 21 October 2008 04:59 PM
quote: Giorgio Mammoliti, Tony Rizzo, Norm Jamison, Dan Waters
These are four out of the evil 12 NDP MPPs under Rae who voted AGAINST same sex spousal benefits when Rae allowed his "free vote" in 1994. I don't know if Barbara Hall ever actually joined the Liberals - I think she has to be non-partisan in her job. Ironically, Kyle Rae left the NDP specifically to protest Bob Rae's mishandling of the SSM issue - but then he endorsed Rae in Toronto Centre. I'm quite certain that Kyle Rae has never actually joined the Liberal party though.
From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
NorthReport
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 15337
|
posted 21 October 2008 05:06 PM
Huh? quote: Originally posted by ghoris: [QB]I think it's safe to say that the next leader will almost certainly be an Anglo from Toronto, Q]
From: From sea to sea to sea | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
johnpauljones
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7554
|
posted 29 October 2008 06:15 AM
Since the membership deadline is in 2 weeks I think that with McKenna bowing out this only proves that the race will not be "democratic"The only people with ground campaigns up and running are Rae and Iggy. One of the 2 will win the leadership. Neither will be able to impress Canadians and bring the libs back to "power" Remember the great Chretien mandate came from 1 province -- Ontario. never again will Ontario blindly vote pro liberal.
From: City of Toronto | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
|