(I wonder if he included Israel in his statement.

quote:

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OTTAWA — Liberal Leader Stephane Dion defended his loyalty to Canada today amid questions about his dual Canadian-French citizenship.

Dion was born in Canada but his mother was born in France and Dion holds French citizenship as a result.

"I'm proud of who I am, and I am fully loyal to my country, and nobody will question that," Dion told reporters. I'm 100 per cent loyal to Canada and I believe I've more than demonstrated that in my life."

The same issue dogged Governor General Michaelle Jean, who also held a French passport through her husband. She eventually renounced French citizenship, saying it would feel strange to hold both while fulfilling her vice-regal duties.

Ezra Levant, a long-time conservative pundit and publisher of the Western Standard, criticized Dion in a column in the Calgary Sun for not doing the same.

"When it comes to making decisions about the war on terror, and Canada's role in Afghanistan, will Dion be unduly influenced by France, a country that has taken up the role of lawyer and arms dealer for every terrorist state in the world, even defending Saddam Hussein until the eve of his overthrow?" Levant wrote.

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Dion did not seek French citizenship, his mother was born there. What should Dion do, denounce his mother? I have relatives who have the same, born in Canada, and they know nothing about their mother country but a few things, and actually are just like everybody else. Bogus. But abusive Cons said they would try vigorously to dig up dirt on Dion, cause they weren't ready, didn't expect him to win. They're not doing so well quite yet, but they will keep trying, cause mudslinging is their style.

Carroll said "if Stephen Harper had a dual American citizenship people would really get upset". Is Carroll worried that people know Harper is an American? How can you take your political positions based on this,unless this too is a cause of concern to the far right? Now the right in Canada is doing the exact G.W. tactic of pitting the people against France, versus the Bush doctrine?

Well, in Harper's case, he was not born in the U.S., but he is clearly a RepubliCon in ideology, as are most in his party. That is the noticeable clear difference.

[ 05 December 2006: Message edited by: happy go leftie (Red Tory) ]

So what happens if the person was not even born in Canada, would we now change the law so they cannot run for office? Isn't that rather 'anti-multicultural' participation? Doesn't smell right. Lots of MP's, MPP's, Municipal & school board members would then be disqualified. Where do we draw the line on "rights" to representation when nearly half of our population is from immigrant communities, not first generation? Whoa? Getting a little risky don't you think?

Hey, wait a minute, Harper's ideo pal, Ted Morton ran for Premier in Alberta, and he was BORN in THE U.S.A. Isn't this actually being that person born in the other country, than a person who is once removed by parentage?

Smell a really sneaky Con-Artist style 'double standard' here, and some racism seeping out of their lips.

As for arms trading, Canada is the world's sixth biggest arms trader in the world. It benefitted handsomly from the US war in Indochina, it was the largest exporter per capita to Indonesia during the genocide of East Timor, it's largest client is that non-Terrorist State known as the USA, actually the only conountry on the world to have been condemned by the World Court for terrorism against Nicaragua. It is also a huge exporter to Colombia (which has ethnically cleansed over 1 million indigenous people) and let us not forget its militaty sales to Turkey, Canada has made alot of profit from the war on Kurds.

Canada is also one of the largest suppliers of bullets for the Iraq war. Yes, we are not shooting Iraqis but we are merely providing the shells for doing so.

Here's Canadian Military exports in 2005

I guess, in the list of crimes to worry about commiting of any Prime Ministerial hopeful, I think having more than one passport shouldn't be at the top of the list, even if that second passport is from the world's 3rd largest weapons exporter.

Ezra Levant should be a little more interested about the global crimes that are committed by the people who hold this passport before passing judgment on other passport holders.

[ 05 December 2006: Message edited by: Tom Vouloumanos ]

Wonder how Deepak Oberai, and Rahim Jaffer feel about this little nasty trick?

Were they born in Canada? Were their parents? This is how far this trash can go, and it should go into the trash.

Dion should laugh at this, cause these morons are really stretching. Yes the influence of France on Canada is just so great (NOT), but not to worry about Harper's Party as a 'real follower' of G.W. policy?

If we use this methodology, should not the first nations be able to pick our PM? Harper better resign now. It's your length of heritage that determines your birthright under the Con? Maybe we can have a truly Conservative racist 'years of heritage' points-based voting system too? Sounds like a 'natural' Neo-Con extension of this pathetic debate.

If Canadians fall for this, then based on equality, every dual citizen in this country who holds any office in government, or even in civil service, police, any kind of public service should have to be treated equally. Now, that would really lead to 'elite whitism' gone wild.

But if Canadians really think this is an issue, then they've just been as dumb as many Americans were in the earlier years of the G.W. regime, where the RepubliCons used this everywhere to divide.

Yes, racial division is good for Canadian Unity? So, if Dion is of French heritage, he is not French Canadian enough being born and raised in Quebec?

[ 05 December 2006: Message edited by: happy go leftie (Red Tory) ]

quote:

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It has even come up in Montreal civic politics where protestors against a street renaming were accused of not being real Montrealers or long time residents.

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It's no more acceptable in a multicultural, pluralistic society to say such things about any ethnic minorities in the country.

Oddly, Dion is a concensus builder, not a dictator, and encourages rights, not belittling them. What a contrast. This is pure RepubliCon tactic, but might backfire. These guys are looking so crude they're back in the dinosaur age, the pre-neanderthals. Saga might recall this discussion.

[ 05 December 2006: Message edited by: happy go leftie (Red Tory) ]

quote:

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Imagine the shrieks from the media if the Conservatives were to elect a leader who is a dual citizen of the U.S. He would be called a U.S. poodle at best or a spy at worst. Every time he opined on a subject, it would be scrutinized through the lens of Canada-U.S. relations. Everything from military spending to foreign treaties like Kyoto would be looked at through the question: Was the Prime Minister of Canada truly pursuing Canadian interests, or was his loyalty to his other homeland at play?

---

It is apparent as Saga said, that how a person behaves, and their 'actual ties' might be a slight bit more worrisome.

How many U.K. born, and others have dual citizenship from birth heritage for example, and have top posts in all levels of government, and unless you get into this anti-divisiveness nonsense, how many were ever checked on this? Big danger, England is taking over Canada?

Another striking thing. Canada's first PM, Sir John A. was born in Scotland, was he not? So, did his allegiance to Scotland become the burning issue? Or should we retroactively denounce his PM ship? Let's ship his remains back to that country (facetiously)? How many other leading politicians at every level were / are there from other countries? Sorry. This is just plain unseemly 'dirt digging'.

[ 05 December 2006: Message edited by: happy go leftie (Red Tory) ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Michelle:
I don't even think it's okay to go on about someone having a dual citizenship in the US. Of course, if they're really into deep integration and think that's just fantastic, then sure, criticize them for that. But I wouldn't just automatically assume that someone with dual citizenship in the Us is going to be some kind of traitor to Canadian interests if they are in public office.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Diane Demorney:
What I take umbrage with, is Levant's double standard. i.e. Dion has French citizenship..But in the same column, says nothing about Morton's USian citizenship.

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And what of Elizabeth May's dual citizenship, why is that not brought up by Levant?

This debate is quite oddly amusing on some really 'baseless' level as you just pointed out. Next oddly placed, selective smear should be put out by tomorrow. Set your watches.

quote:

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Originally posted by Scott Piatkowski:
I really hope that the Conservatives decide to make this an election issue. They really really need to work harder at alienating the largely-urban immigrant populations of this country.

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quote:

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The neocon Ezra Levant seems interested in spreading doubt about Dion's loyalty to Canada and says that France played the role of a lawyer and arms dealer for "every terrorist state in the world".

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Just a question - Dion is technically a French citizen as I understand, but does he actually represent himself as one (i.e. use a French passport?) I think the latter is unacceptable for a PM, or PM in waiting.

Former G-G Adrienne Clarkson was born in Hong Kong and probably has a right to Chinese citizenship.

In any case if the Cons try to make an issue of this it will sink them even further with ethnics and francophones. But who needs those votes to win an election, anyway?

quote:

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Another striking thing. Canada's first PM, Sir John A. was born in Scotland, was he not? So, did his allegiance to Scotland become the burning issue?

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[ 06 December 2006: Message edited by: brookmere ]

quote:

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Just a question - Dion is technically a French citizen as I understand, but does he actually represent himself as one (i.e. use a French passport?) I think the latter is unacceptable for a PM, or PM in waiting. -Bookmere

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Most likey he does have a French passport and he used it. He attended University in France and understandably a French passport eliminates hassles of immigration procedures, visas, to say the least.

[ 06 December 2006: Message edited by: sidra ]

My view is that if you are going to be a dual citizen, France is as good place to have it with as any (great food, great wine, great cities etc...).

Stephane can't control where his mother was born. I hope it backfires on them (neocon)like when the neocons made fun of Chrietins birth defect, again they couldn't attack the policy so they attack the person. Of course it is something he is born with.

Must be neocon tactic 34544-65f

Watching the "no name" ndp member of parliament jump on the bigot bandwagon was also worth the price of viewing a global newscast. The NDP showing their true neo-con wannabe colors, how fitting.

[ 06 December 2006: Message edited by: Buddy Kat ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Fidel:
[QB]We should condemn Calgarians for flying as many stars and stripes on their skyline as they do. [QB]

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Toronto Star story

quote:

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NDP Leader Jack Layton was not as critical, but said it would probably be a better idea to maintain one citizenship.

"I would prefer that a leader of a party hold only Canadian citizenship, because one represents many Canadians, and for me that means that it's better to remain the citizen of one country," Layton said.

"But for a person that isn't in a position of representing others, holding dual citizenship is fine with us."

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Edited to add:

The NDP's statement on Dual Citizenship, in which Julian states:

quote:

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"Narrow-minded members of the government should open their eyes and get a grip on the essence of Canada’s advantage in the world," MP Peter Julian concludes. "We should celebrate our international bonds, not discourage them. Canada is well respected around the world, and dual citizens are among our most passionate ambassadors when they travel in other countries."

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[ 06 December 2006: Message edited by: Briguy ]

quote:

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Odd that Ezra didn't denounce Ted Morton for trying to become premier of Alberta while holding US/Canadian dual citizenship.

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I don't think its odd at all. Ezra doesn't care about people being dual citizens. he just like it bieng France.

I have seen a lot of negative stuff about Ted Morton from people on the left making the point that he is US-born and a dual citizen - so we are not always lily white on this either.

quote:

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Originally posted by Stockholm:
I agree with Jack. I think it is PREFERABLE that the Prime Minister of Canada not also be a citizen of any other country.

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Why? Do we stop at the PM's office, or is it preferable for all persons "in a position of representing others"?

quote:

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Why? Do we stop at the PM's office, or is it preferable for all persons "in a position of representing others"?

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I think its also PREFERABLE that the leader of the NDP not also be member of the Liberal party.

quote:

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Originally posted by gadar:
As others have earlier noted, I hope that the cons make this a big issue. The Harper gag order can work only for so long.Their racist and bigot nature will soon start showing. People need to see their true colors.

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Oh they are and their screaming about, how Dion is an "anti-English bigot because he s is alleged to strongly support Bill 101 and think it was brilliant!

These putz's are insane, Harper tables a motion stating PQ is a nation within a nation, and they are screaming about Dion supporting Bill 101 and that proves his alliances are with the French!

quote:

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Originally posted by sidra:
(I wonder if he included Israel in his statement.

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The Military equipment of Israel includes a wide array of arms, tanks, planes, cannons, armored vehicles. Many of these are purchased overseas.

Up until the Six-Day War, the Israel Defense Forces' principal supplier was France,

since then the United States government and defense companies. Much of the military equipment undergoes improvements in Israeli workshops.

Wiki

According to Wikipedia's article on Steven Harper:

quote:

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When the United Alternative created the Canadian Alliance in 2000 as a successor party to Reform, Harper endorsed Tom Long for the leadership, believing him to be better suited than the contender Stockwell Day.

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Layton should not keep getting on these bandwagons with the likes of the Neo-Cons. It’s going to do damage to all who play this one. Francophones will not accept this one bit, and the Quebec media was all over the people who tried to make it an issue.

Even TVA anchor said this is a dubious double standard as 'John Turner' was from English Canada, but had British citizenship. Whoa, can of worms now eh?

There's more than Ezra Levant spreading this everywhere, it's on the main networks, major radio talk shows. Bill Carroll did his usual Conservative abusive radio talk show on the issue. These Conservative backers seem to communicate, act rather simultaneously. But, it may just really get lots of people quite mad in immigrant communities as well, all except some of the natural reform base. This is going to be quite fun to watch who dares to continue with this.

CTV News Net last night , but Bob Fife says Conservative Cabinet and back benchers are making it an issue: Tony Clement, Gord Brown. Hey, wasn’t Clement actually born in Britain? Does that make him more disloyal to Canada? See how far this thing can stretch. Will he sell Canada’s healthcare system to Britian? Ha, ha, ha. Actually he’s absolutely a pro-private healthcare advocate, but would be absolutely inclined to sell us out the American big healthcare lobby. He’s already giving the green light to any and all privatization, just like these same Cons did in Ontario.

It’s a stupid attack. But Pat Martin of the NDP? Sounded rather odd? NDP should NOT go there. Francophones are going to punish anyone who attacks a Francophone leader, exactly what happened on TVA yesterday. Even though reporters are not generally so generous to the strong federalist view, they were really miffed when this came up in Quebec. This is divisive, dirty, and the lowest form of political discourse.

Get real, how is it ok for all kinds of ‘English’ Canadians, but not Francophone politicians. This is a clear case of abuse of political decency on all who participate in this.

But Fife says this is likely to backfire on all of them, and 41 MP’s also have dual citizenship, so are they disloyal to Canada when they work on serious files? Well, sounds like what most people are saying. And don’t give me the crap that it’s not the same thing, because it’s all the same thing. All of them have an impact, not just a leader of a party, and not just for dumping on a Francophone leader.

Interview, Duceppe said, it's quite normal in this modern day. This is not an issue. Duceppe said, 'can't see this being any problem whatsoever'. Guess he's a little smarter than the others. Could be more than just a little risky for Conservatives to keep using this kind of thing on Dion.

Good lord.

Is the Rhino party still in existence?

[ 06 December 2006: Message edited by: Michelle ]

quote:

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I guess no one remembers that Tom Long, a citizen of the US, ran for leader of the Reform Party, but was defeated by Stockwell Day.

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quote:

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Is the Rhino party still in existence?

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Michelle, why does every little thing Layton or the NDP says get blown up into a vote determining issue?

Heck I'm married to someone who is fortunate enough to hold three citizenships (Canadian, American and Irish) and I wasn't the least bit offended.

Never once has this been mentioned about an English speaking politician at any level.

Will never agree with your view of this. It is not an issue. It is pure dirt. Jumping into the Conservative bed, who dug up this dirty divisive tactic and backing Layton on anything and everything he says or does is completely questionable. Layton is not leading the NDP, a party that is supposed to believe in equal rights. He's not doing his job here. He's defending the wrong people.

quote:

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Right, only for francophone leaders of a party? Do you not see how divisive and ignorant this is? How can you defend this?
Never once has this been mentioned about an English speaking politician at any level.

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quote:

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Never once has this been mentioned about an English speaking politician at any level.

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That's simply not true.

As Stockholm pointed out, Tom Long was attacked mostly from the political left for being a US citizen when he ran for the leadership of the Canadian Alliance in 2000.

Behold the following screaming headline which it took me exactly 2.8 seconds to find by googling:

quote:

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U.S. CITIZEN TOM LONG STAYS IN ALLIANCE RACE DESPITE FRAUDULENT MEMBERSHIPS

Prime Minister Jean Chrétien took advantage of the news, and said that the cemeteries in Gaspé will be empty because everyone will be voting in the Alliance leadership race.

Already reeling from the reaction to news that he is an American citizen, Long said at a Toronto news conference June 21 he was "embarrassed and angry with recruitment tactics" taken by his staff in Gaspé, acknowledging that at least 700 voters on his recruitment lists from the region didn't know about the party or didn't support him, even though they were reportedly signed up by his staff and are eligible to vote.

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Can we get back to what's relevant now?

I thought it was obvious that my line about the Rhino party was supposed to be a throw-away joke, but I guess not. Oh well. Anyhow, yeah, I'm not crazy about Layton picking up neo-con talking points. It just feels like an opportunistic "anything to bash the Liberals" type of attack. There's lots to bash the Liberal party (and the Conservatives! Remember them? The even worse party?) about without jumping on the neo-con freedom fry bandwagon, you know?

Same Ontario Conservative's now in Harper Cabinet sold out a huge Nuclear plant to private foreign company for firesale price? Foreign company then sold our power to Americans, the highest bidder, while we lived with power shortages, and suddenly skyrocketing, suffocating dirty coal generation?

Taxpayers paid to build 407 highway, sold by Conservatives on 100 YEAR deal to private interests, netting this foreign company about $650 Billion in pure profits on the backs of Ontarians? Tantamount to pure thievery. Legally unbreakable agreements, sold for unbearably less than what these Canadian assets were worth (even though should never have been done at all).

Then what about the allegiance of Tony Clement, born and raised in Britain? Some of the most downright despicable deals were sell offs to 'British interests'? Now that's really questionable, if you want to examine allegiances. Billions in healthcare privatization profits to big campaign donors, and Clement was the health minister? Should we just ban him from politics? Yay! Their allegiance wasn't to the people?

These same Conservatives used Anderson Consulting, of the big U.S. Enron scandal to run huge contracts, and on one of them Ontario was ripped off for $320 MILLION, and 'no' investigation by these same now 'dirt digging' Conservatives? Accountablility? Allegiance to the people? Damn.

The list is very long. Look at the actual allegiances. To dare to say just cause the guy's mother was born in France, we now have to change the rules for everyone? Right, just to get the phony Conservative dirt to stick on this one francophone 'very Canadian' party leader?

You're not doing yourself any great service by carrying this on. You're making the NDP sound more and more like Conservatives on equality issues. Bet many in the party wouldn't agree with this at all. Can't see why this is only a precedent suddenly because this one politician is a francophone 'born and raised' in Canada. Now to nail some manipulative nonsense on him we should go after everyone in politics? How truly big of you.

Again, have to say, way too ironic. A guy who was born and raised in Quebec, a strong leader for national unity IN CANADA, and you can come up with questioning his allegiance to Canada?

This is so nuts. You can question people's actual 'non-allegiance' to Canada, like how Conservatives favour everything Usian, their RepubliCon ‘war on crime policies’, their 'U.S. style privatized healthcare agenda', their 'U.S. military complex' approach to all spending, descriminatory taxation policies favouring ideologues and the rich, and RepubliCon social values in this country. A whole lot of real concerns.

But to say a guy who was born here, yet his allegiance is an issue? Again, only for francophone leaders of a party? It's pure scuzz.

Possibly people were likely also concerned about the fraudulent memberships with Tom Long. Knowing his actual writings, policy agendas, and his actual allegiances, they were noticeably pro-American / RepubliCon IMO.

To clarify JK, 'this was never done to an Anglophone leader' of any party, at least can never recall one. Again, people examine allegiances, and between Dion and Tom Long, give me a break? That is really no contest on whose interests they align with.

So, would it change anything about Dion if he decided tomorrow to give up his French citizenship? Or would he be the same person with the same views and the same opinions as the person he is today, who just happens to have a French parent and therefore automatically has been able to have French citizenship?

What does Layton think of Jews who have dual citizenship in Israel? Should they also not be in political leadership positions?

The NDP is supposed to be the party that stands for multiculturalism and immigration and anti-racism and tolerance and respect, and now he goes and alienates people who hold dual citizenship? Does he think there are no dual citizens among his supporters?

I wonder how many politicians have dual citizenship with the UK? I wonder why that's never been an issue?

quote:

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I'm with Duceppe of the BQ on this - we're a modern nation now, not the 19th Century, and we should just drop the issue and move on. This could be a divisive issue, especially here in Quebec.

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Boom Boom makes an interesting point.

But Duceppe's position is based on more than magnimity toward Dion. During the 1995 referendum, one of the key sovereignist arguments to reassure nervous Quebeckers was that they could keep their Canadian citizenship even after independence.

Article 5 of the PQ government's 1995 referendum bill specifically said "Quebec citizenship may be held concurrently with citizenship of Canada or of any other country."
http://www.solon.org/misc/referendum-bill.html

quote:

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Originally posted by John K:
At the time, the federalist side poured cold water on this PQ position.

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quote:

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Why didn't Jack just leave this can of worms to the Conservatives?

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Let's put all this in perspective. Jack didn't "raise" this issue. I think that what happened was in all likelhihood that in a scrum, he was asked his opinion on the controversy over Stephane Dion being a dual citizen. He answered that all things being equal it is probably preferable that the leader of a national party be a citizen of Canada alone, but that it was not a big deal. Period.

quote:

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Originally posted by sidra:
The neocon Ezra Levant

http://tinyurl.com/yc3g3l

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quote:

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Let's put all this in perspective. Jack didn't "raise" this issue. I think that what happened was in all likelhihood that in a scrum, he was asked his opinion on the controversy over Stephane Dion being a dual citizen. He answered that all things being equal it is probably preferable that the leader of a national party be a citizen of Canada alone, but that it was not a big deal. Period.

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Nonsense it was an idiotic response an example( as Michelle pointed out) of someone reacting rather than responding. It is obvious why is is a problematic response, the issue of dual citizenship being originally brought up surrounding Lebanon was clearly racist. Why would you have any desire to be associated with such discourse.

quote:

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Originally posted by Duncan Cameron:
This was a bad issue for the NDP to raise.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Stockholm:
So do you feel that all the leftwing people who attacked people like Tom Long and Ted Morton for also being US citizens should were also borderline racist and ought to apologize?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Briguy:

Why? Do we stop at the PM's office, or is it preferable for all persons "in a position of representing others"?

No thanks. Leave the moronic race baiting to the party that does it best. It's a non-issue, especially for a party that supposedly champions equal rights.

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I don't particularly like the idea that this is 'race baiting'. France, and the other example that have popped up, the US, doesn't constitute a 'race'.

[ 06 December 2006: Message edited by: Vansterdam Kid ]

There are plenty of "older" NDP who would agree completely with Jack regarding it being "preferrable" that any PM of Canada have 1 citizenship, Canadian. In fact, I know many old time NDPers, and who work their asses off every election for the NDP, and who have been NDP from the get go, who are very much against the amounts spent, and the laws existing, concerning biligualism and who indeed are anti-France involvement in Canada. They remember the De Gaul comments quite well.

As an NDPer,I personally do not care if our government representatives hold dual citizenship, however, many do. And a great many do hold duals citizenship.

quote:

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EDITORIAL: DION'S FIRST MISTAKE

New Liberal leader Stephane Dion has asked for a good reason why he should give up his French citizenship. We will provide several, with one caveat.

We are not questioning Dion's loyalty to Canada because he holds dual Canadian/French citizenship, due to the fact his mother was born in France.

Dion has fought honourably for Canada against Quebec separatists. His loyalty is above reproach.

But it's not a question of loyalty. It's an issue of perception. Dion now leads the dominant party of Canadian politics. He intends to become prime minister some day and there's a good chance he will.

If he does, his dual citizenship will instantly become a huge issue. Logically, how can the prime minister of Canada also be a citizen of France?

The perception of divided loyalties will always be there. What if Canada and France disagree on a major foreign policy issue? People will ask where Dion's loyalties lie.

The only way he can end this for good is by renouncing his French citizenship.

---

BTW: How many of us (honestly) were pleased when Conrad Black was forced to renounce his canadian citizenship in order to take his seat in the British House of Lords??? (I know I was)

[ 07 December 2006: Message edited by: Stockholm ]

So if France and Canada disagree on a foreign issue, it is not likely that all Canadians and French people would also be in disagreement with each other so it would not matter if Dion agree with the “French position” because that could be the position of many Canadians as well. Canada does not have a position that all Canadians agree on so I don't understand how "Canada" can disagree with any country.

Nationhood is a social construct, isn't it?

[ 07 December 2006: Message edited by: babblerwannabe ]

quote:

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Logically, the Prime Minister’s loyalty is to humanity.

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Constitutionally, the prime minister is just another cabinet minister and does not hold any mandated powers. It is no less proper for the prime minister to hold dual citizenship than any other minister - and there have been plenty of them.

This was a ploy used by Conservatives to try to divide English Canada, agree with that, but it is going to cost all of them in Quebec who use this meaningless ploy. There is no one with an actual brain who question Dion’s loyalty to Canada, and it is ALLEGIANCES that matter.

Can you trust this guy to stand up for Canada? Hell Yes. To say otherwise is just ignorance, and pure sleaze politics.

Dion was BORN here, is more fiercely loyal than many. This guy will fight for Canada passionately, which many don’t even bother to do, they just jump like followers on the ‘bandwagon of the day’. Conveniently there are those in this thread who argue ‘the same positions’ of people who really are a threat to Canada. Will repeat, allegiances matter, and the threat of an influence from France is just whooey. There is always a threat to Canadian interests from the U.S. though.

American influence continues to be far more worrisome, especially with the ‘actual loyalties’ of many Conservatives to the Republican Conservatives. Ignoring that fact may arise out of some sense of idealism, but it does not reduce the influence or the damage that flows from the really obvious links between these guys.

http://tinyurl.com/yfbzud
Dion's loyalty should not be questioned
Published: Thursday, December 07, 2006

It really is preposterous to suggest that Stephane Dion, the newly minted leader of the Liberal Party, is anything but a loyal Canadian. Anyone who has watched him wage his passionate but patient war against those who would tear the country in two knows that Dion need defend his loyalty to no one. If courage and sacrifice are the currency of patriotism, then Dion has paid the price - not in battlefield heroics perhaps, but certainly in the abuse, calumnies and contempt he has endured at the hands of the elite in his own home province.

And yet despite all that, the Hammer of the Separatists and author of the Clarity Bill found himself under attack from lesser men this week simply because he has a piece of paper attesting that he is a French citizen, as well as a Canadian one, by virtue of his Paris-born mother. He has never lived in France except when he was studying for his doctorate at Institut d'etudes politiques in Paris or held a French passport or voted in a French election, but that didn't stop Alberta journalist Ezra Levant from questioning his reliability.

There's no great principle at stake here. Unlike Michaelle Jean, who did renounce her French citizenship when she became governor-general, Dion as opposition leader and head of the Liberal Party does not embody the state. Even as prime minister, he would simply be the head of government serving at the will of Parliament and the people.

[ 07 December 2006: Message edited by: happy go leftie (Red Tory) ]

quote:

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Art. 23-8(Act no 73-42 of 9 Jan. 1973)

Loses French nationality a French person who, filling an employment in a foreign army or public service or in an international organization of which France is not a member, or more generally providing his assistance to it, did not relinquish his employment or stop his assistance notwithstanding the order of the Government.

The party concerned shall be declared, by decree in Conseil d'Etat, to have lost French nationality unless, within the period prescribed by the order and which may not be shorter than fifteen days or longer than two months, he stops his occupation.

Where the opinion of the Conseil d'Etat is adverse, the measure provided for in the preceding paragraph may be adopted only by a decree in Council of Ministers.

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Link

Layton should never have joined in with them. The NDP doesn't have to agree with Conservatives so much, it just makes them look more and more opportunistic. The few arguments put up to bolster that dubious Cons opinion here don't hold any water.

To claim, we have now progressed because we question loyalty of 'only' one Francophone politician 'since it's 16 years ago' that John Turner was PM? That is just not on.

If you then hold this premise to be true, every politician, bar none, cannot hold dual citizenship. Unless you think only this one francophone politician is a 'special case' for some baseless 'purely partisan' reason.

Equality. Treat everyone the same. If you want to use this logic.

Maybe we're headed to where every politician be given a lie detector test to see if they are loyal to Canada or some other country? Again, being facetious. The whole subject is ridiculous.

Hey, lets do the lie dectector test, and we'll see which politicians are foolin' us and which ones are really loyal to another country.

Let's see which ones really pass the muster.

[ 07 December 2006: Message edited by: happy go leftie (Red Tory) ]

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To claim, we have now progressed because we question loyalty of 'only' one Francophone politician 'since it's 16 years ago' that John Turner was PM? That is just not on.

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I never claimed anything of the sort. My argument is against the ridiculous notion that the NDP is hypocritical, because some people claim that they didn't make this argument vis a vis John Turner holding dual citizenship sixteen to twenty two years ago. It's a ridiculous argument because the example is so out of date.

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If you then hold this premise to be true, every politician, bar none, cannot hold dual citizenship. Unless you think only this one francophone politician is a 'special case' for some baseless 'purely partisan' reason.

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And in case your wondering, no I don't think that government leaders, who hold offices that are the embodiment of state and government, thus representatives of the people, should be citizens of multiple countries. They have to swear to uphold an oath of office, therefore there's a certain fusion between the individual and the office itself. So while it's technically true that Dion would only be the head of government, in all practical terms, he represents the state as well. Therefore brookemere's argument about the Govenor General giving up her dual citizenship, and that being fine, compared to Dion doing so, doesn't hold water.

Besides, Dion isn't a private citizen. If he was a private citizen, I couldn't careless how many citizenships he held, or holds.

[ 07 December 2006: Message edited by: Vansterdam Kid ]

The Shawinigan Strangler acted in a petty,vindictive fashion by opposing Conrad the Barbarian's title.Does anyone not understand how well deserved the title is? It was arduous work for such an arrogant buffoon to stoop to kissing miles of Brit arse only to be fobbed off with a title to the busking rights to a branchline station where the train doesn't bother coming to a full stop.He eagerly abandoned Canadian citizenship for British humiliation

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Originally posted by brookmere:
Because the G-G is the Queen's representative and acting head of state. The G-G must sign all legislation before it becomes law. Can't you see a problem if the G-G is answerable to a foreign power?

Constitutionally, the prime minister is just another cabinet minister and does not hold any mandated powers. It is no less proper for the prime minister to hold dual citizenship than any other minister - and there have been plenty of them.

And I must say, given the NDP said nothing about John Turner's dual citizenship at any time, it is completely hypocritical for Layton to criticize Dion for this. Oh yes, let's not forget former BC NDP premier Ujjal Dosanjh is a dual citizen too.

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Art. 23-8(Act no 73-42 of 9 Jan. 1973)

Loses French nationality a French person who, filling an employment in a foreign army or public service or in an international organization of which France is not a member, or more generally providing his assistance to it, did not relinquish his employment or stop his assistance notwithstanding the order of the Government.

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Hasn't Dion been employed in public service for a foreign government for some time now as a Canadian MP and Minister?

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Originally posted by jester:
I was outraged when Mr. Money was forced to pillage his employees' pension plan in order to woo Atilla the Honey. Who cares if some cheapsuit carpetbagger wants to trade Canadian citizenship for a title named after a rural railway station.

The Shawinigan Strangler acted in a petty,vindictive fashion by opposing Conrad the Barbarian's title.Does anyone not understand how well deserved the title is? It was arduous work for such an arrogant buffoon to stoop to kissing miles of Brit arse only to be fobbed off with a title to the busking rights to a branchline station where the train doesn't bother coming to a full stop.He eagerly abandoned Canadian citizenship for British humiliation

Stephane Dion doesn't deserve to be included in that company.

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My argument is against the ridiculous notion that the NDP is hypocritical, because some people claim that they didn't make this argument vis a vis John Turner holding dual citizenship sixteen to twenty two years ago. It's a ridiculous argument because the example is so out of date.

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The fact is that it was very well known that Turner had been born in the UK, and nobody made an issue of it. Not the NDP, not anyone else. The hypocrisy of this is obvious to every francophone in Canada. And I seem to recall that the NDP holds some ridings with large francophone populations.

[ 07 December 2006: Message edited by: brookmere ]

If a few Tories had not said anything about Dion's French citizenship, no journalist would have asked Layton for his opinion and the NDP would never have initiated anything on this issue.

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In the House of Commons, Dion’s fellow party leaders were split on the concept of dual citizenship for holders of public office. NDP Leader Jack Layton asserted that dual citizenship was fine for private citizens, but suggested that one nationality would be best for party leaders. Bloc Québécois Leader Gilles Duceppe, usually one of Dion’s harshest critics, rallied to his aid on the matter. According to La Presse, Duceppe didn’t see what all the fuss was about, saying Dion is “a modern man, he’s not living in a previous century.” In his own defense, Dion told CTV’s Mike Duffy Live that he is “100 percent loyal to Canada.” The issue of Dion’s French citizenship, which he acquired through his Paris-born mother, first hit the public radar when he became a member of Paul Martin’s cabinet. At the time, Dion told the Citizen he neither votes in French elections nor does he hold a valid passport. But it is University of Toronto professor Audrey Macklin, cited in the Citizen, who underscores the real issue at stake. Comparing fellow Liberal leadership candidate Michael Ignatieff (a Canadian citizen who has lived abroad for thirty years) to Stéphane Dion (a Canadian with dual citizenship who has actively participated in public life for over a decade), Macklin asks rhetorically “Who is the better Canadian citizen?” As an issue that will only grow in significance in an ever-globalizing world, MediaScout hopes for more discussion about what dual citizens contribute to the country, rather than more rhetoric on what Canada loses because of its multi-identity citizens.

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It is an interesting debate considering more than 4 million Canadian citizens have dual citizenship in this country right now. It's especially important considering Michelle Jean gave into recent pressure to renounce her dual citizenship with France.

[ 07 December 2006: Message edited by: jrose ]

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Originally posted by Stockholm:
In the 80s the Conservatives never made an issue of Turner's dual citizenship and so Broadbent was never asked his opinion about it.

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If a few Tories had not said anything about Dion's French citizenship, no journalist would have asked Layton for his opinion and the NDP would never have initiated anything on this issue.

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Vansterdam: he became Prime Minister three years after the constitution was repatriated, therefore the occurance of dual British and Canadian citizenship would've been far more frequent.

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[ 07 December 2006: Message edited by: brookmere ]