http://cjnews.com/viewarticle.asp?id=1126

Speaking as a member of the NDP since its founding, I feel that the NDP's relationship with the Jewish community went through a rough period in the late 90s/early 2000s but has improved under Layton. Layton I think has been fair to both sides. There does remain however a small number of people on the Left who single out Israel while the crimes of other countries have been worse.

A refreshing experience, not to be missed.

It expresses eloquently the sentiments of tons of people I know, both Jewish and non-Jewish, in Montreal, Ottawa and Toronto, who have had the creepy feeling in the past 4-5 years that anti-Semitic sentiments were spreading, even, God forbid, in some leftwing circles.

The article provides some much needed balance and perspective and shows that that state of affairs need not be the case. Progressive Jews, their allies and the broader left need not be at loggerheads.

[ 04 July 2006: Message edited by: Critical Mass2 ]

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Originally posted by Critical Mass2:

It expresses eloquently the sentiments of tons of people I know

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You know tons of people? Oy! Should I recommend them a diet?

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And what is a Jewish lefty to do when others on the left insist on their unthinking and mindless criticism of Israel - and the Jews?

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The sense of alienation and isolation that many Jewish lefties now feel from our former friends and associates have made us deeply discouraged and pessimistic, both about Israel and even more about the left itself.

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If we want to criticize Israel's actions in the territories - and such a stance is certainly fair game - then let's show a minimum of consistency and integrity and also condemn some of the many repressive regimes elsewhere in the world. . . It is the moral duty of the left to criticize these atrocities, but by focusing on Israel as if it were the only - or the worst - offender, the left serves only to discredit itself. . . . you can be either a good lefty or a good Jew - but not both.

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Originally posted by Critical Mass2:
Thank you for posting the article Sheldon Gordon.

It expresses eloquently the sentiments of tons of people I know, both Jewish and non-Jewish, in Montreal, Ottawa and Toronto, who have had the creepy feeling in the past 4-5 years that anti-Semitic sentiments were spreading, even, God forbid, in some leftwing circles.

The article provides some much needed balance and perspective and shows that that state of affairs need not be the case. Progressive Jews, their allies and the broader left need not be at loggerheads.

[ 04 July 2006: Message edited by: Critical Mass2 ]

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I am not sure what I am more frieghtened of anti-semetism or maudlin histrionics.

Its amazing how you guys just keep referencing this thing that is going on in the left vis anti-seemtism, yet, you never seem to come up with anything specific, just general assertions, and no quotes.

Kinda like McCarthy.

So, Sheldon, CM2, just how many anti-semites are there on the left, and are we ever going to see your list, or are you just going to talk about it?

[ 04 July 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]

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Good rhetoric, but bad politics, and a severe over-generalization. The "mainstream left" is not, in my experience, so monolithic.

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That is a good point I would like to pick up on.

The mainstream left, the vast majority of the Left, that is the vast moderate majority in the NDP, the Greens and among leftleaning Liberals, should not be confused with the numerically tiny radical Left. It is from the small radical Left that the more extreme forms of anti-Israeli rhetoric has come from, often stepping over the line into what is perceived as hostile and hurtful by many Jewish progressives and their allies.

How numerically significant is the more extreme anti-Israeli faction as opposed to the more mainstream group that is critical of Israeli AND Palestinian policies? Well, just taking the NDP as an example, we know that Layton was elected leader with more than half of the members voting.

The Socialist Caucus, which is very anti-Israeli and noisy, had a candidate who won 1% of the votes and we know that only half of eligible NDPers took part. In other words, one half of one percent of NDPers supported the candidate of the faction pushing the kinds of ideas being criticized in the article posted.

So, they may be louder and ruder and more offensive but they are not the mainstream Left.

Many more people who are progressive, your "former" allies, are still your allies and we are offended and often horrified by some of the rhetoric demonizing Israelis. And yes we are comfortable with Layton's reasonable even-handed policy of demanding accountability from both sides and being critical of the faults and abuses of both sides. Most people I know are sickened by the conflict and sickened by one-sided partisanship.

Once again, thanks Sheldon Gordon. The article speaks for many people I know and respect.

[ 04 July 2006: Message edited by: Critical Mass2 ]

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Originally posted by Michelle:
I'm not sure why you felt like you had to start a new thread since the other one is open in the Canadian politics forum.

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Anyway, as I was saying, when a Jew notices an upsurge in anti-Semitism, it does not lie in the mouth of a gentile to say "you're imagining it." Especially in a country that turned its face against refugees from the Nazis within the memory of some still living.

[ 04 July 2006: Message edited by: Wilf Day ]

I appreciate Professor Lightman's dilemma about being Jewish and a lefty. However, may I recommend an alternative solution, à la Bertell Ollman, prominent Marxist philosopher?

Letter of Resignation from the Jewish People

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Did you ever wonder what your last thought would be just before you died or believed you might die? Well, I did, and a few years ago in the waning moments before going under the knife for a life threatening operation I got my answer. As the nurses wheeled me into the operating room, what burst upon my consciousness was not, as might be expected, the fear of dying but a terrible angst at the idea of dying a Jew. I was appalled to finish my life with my umbilical cord still tied to a people with whom I can no longer identify. That this should be my "last" thought greatly surprised me at the time, and it still does. [...]

From what I've said so far, it would be easy for some to dismiss me as a self-hating Jew, but that would be a mistake. If anything, I am a self-loving Jew, but the Jew I love in me is the Diaspora Jew, the Jew that was blessed for 2,000 years by having no country to call his/her own. That this was accompanied by many cruel disadvantages is well known, but it had one crowning advantage that towered over all the rest. By being an outsider in every country and belonging to the family of outsiders throughout the world, Jews on the whole suffered less from the small-minded prejudices that disfigure all forms of nationalism. If you couldn't be a full and equal citizen of the country in which you lived, you could be a citizen of the world, or at least begin to think of yourself as such even before the concepts existed that would help to clarify what this meant. I'm not saying that this is how most Diaspora Jews actually thought, but some did—Spinoza, Marx, Freud, and Einstein being among the best known—and the opportunity as well as the inclination for others to do so came from the very rejection they all experienced in the countries in which they lived. Even the widespread treatment of Jews as somehow less than human provoked a universalist response. As children of the same God, Jews argued, when this was permitted or just quietly reflected when it wasn't, that they shared a common humanity with their oppressors and that this should take precedence over everything else. The anti-Semitic charge, then, that Jews have always and everywhere been cosmopolitan and insufficiently patriotic had at least this much truth to it. [...]

What, if anything, has such Zionism got to do with traditional Jewish values?

As far as I'm concerned, the comedian, Lenny Bruce, provided the only good answer to this question when he said, "Dig, I'm Jewish. Count Basie's Jewish. Ray Charles is Jewish. Eddie Cantor is goyish... Marine Corps—heavy goyish... If you live in New York or any other big city, you're Jewish. If you live in Butte, Montana, you're going to be goyish even if you're Jewish... Kool-Aid is goyish. Evaporated milk is goyish even if Jews invented it... Pumpernickel is Jewish and, as you know, white bread is very goyish.... Negroes are all Jews... Irishmen who have rejected their religion are Jewish... Baton twirling is very goyish".6

To this I would only add, "Noam Chomsky, Mordechai Vanunu and Edward Said are Jewish. Elie Wiesel is goyish. So, too, all 'Jewish' neo-cons. Socialism and communism are Jewish. Sharon and Zionism are very goyish". And, who knows, if this reading of Judaism were to take hold, I may one day apply for readmission to the Jewish people.

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It is the moral duty of the left to criticize these atrocities, but ...

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Always a but, eh?

Okay, I am willing to come to an understanding with lefty Jews who agree Israel is committing atrocities but who also believe any fair criticism of Israel should be accompanied with a disclaimer of some sort:

The foregoing criticism of Israel is to be understood within the context that Israel is not alone in carrying out atrocities and is not necessarily the worst among atrocity carrying out nations and, for some (most notably those being atrocitized by states other than Israel) may even be considered a decent atrocitizer when compared to similar states with equal regard for human rights, dignity, international law and basic human compassion.

How's that?

[ 04 July 2006: Message edited by: Frustrated Mess ]

Norman Finkelstein thinks this idea is a little outdated though

http://www.en-camino.org/?p=12

[ 04 July 2006: Message edited by: Lord Palmerston ]

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Originally posted by Wilf Day:
Anyway, as I was saying, when a Jew notices an upsurge in anti-Semitism, it does not lie in the mouth of a gentile to say "you're imagining it." Especially in a country that turned its face against refugees from the Nazis within the memory of some still living.

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Well, I'll tell you from one goy to another - I'll shut up in this thread when you do, how about that?

Anyways, I've not noticed this. In fact, many lefties I find are supportive of Israel. You know. Me, for instance. I'm fairly certain that I'd fall into that tiny, ickle wickle form of radical leftism too. Bill Blakie and others also are very, very strong speakers for the Israeli state. But of course they're just left-leaning Liberals, eh? Or Greens perhaps. I suppose that being a lefty, radical, and sympathetic to the Jewish state is an impossiblity. Just like being Jewish or leftist and opposed to the POLICIES of the state of Israel can't be anything but Nouveau Anti-Semitism.

Waving around anti-semitism is quickly replacing waving around fascism as the new unintelligent smear tactic. Commie, NAZI, fascist...any sort of political polarization attack...now its anti-semitism.

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Originally posted by Michelle:
As for me, when Judy Rebick and josh and other Jews who are against the occupation tell me that strongly opposing Israel's actions is anti-semitic and anti-Jewish, I'll believe it.

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Originally posted by Lord Palmerston:
You can only think of 2 babblers who fit that description?

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Life, of course, is more complicated, but the lines are drawn in the sand, and you can be either a good lefty or a good Jew - but not both.

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Originally posted by Michelle:

Well, I was typing quickly. It wasn't meant to be an exhaustive list.

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How come you never hear about this in the CJN, since we constantly hear about how "popular" Stockwell Day is!

http://www.pressaction.com/news/weblog/full_article/cummings06182004/

Canadian Jews, like other Canadians to a large degree, are a good deal more progressive than their southern counterparts. David Frum drew no more than one hundred people to a talk at Toronto’s flagship Synagogue Holy Blossom, while a joint talk between Palestinian and Israeli peace activists drew a crowd of over a thousand, with people being turned away and closed circuit screening in Hebrew School classrooms.

[ 04 July 2006: Message edited by: Lord Palmerston ]

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Originally posted by Michelle:
This is, like, the umpteenth thread on this topic over the last five years. Probably all the other ones are closed for length after the usual bait and smear routine generated a hundred or so posts.

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I've said this before, but I'll try this again:

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Originally posted by Critical Mass2:

The Socialist Caucus, which is very anti-Israeli and noisy, had a candidate who won 1% of the votes and we know that only half of eligible NDPers took part. In other words, one half of one percent of NDPers supported the candidate of the faction pushing the kinds of ideas being criticized in the article posted.

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You are saying that Barry Wieslader is an antisemite? You are a total wanker, and you have absolutely no idea what, or who you are talking about. You are nothing but puffed up two bit slanderer. The late Joe Flexer too, I suppose.

I think the site should remove this slanderous post. I am absolutely sure, that whatever Judy Rebick might think about the Socialist Caucus, she does not want them slandered as antisemites, on her board.

Should I be suprised that the intitial slander of antisemetism in the left is backed up by further slander of Jewsish people on the left, as supposed antisemites?

No, Not when it comes from you, you poisonous piece of shit. Where did your mother get your brain? Was it a prize from a Cracker Jack box?

I am not even in your fucking party and I know more about the people in it.

[ 04 July 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]

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Originally posted by Cueball:

You are saying that Barry Wieslader is an antisemite? You are a total wanker, and you have absolutely no idea what, or who you are talking about. You are nothing but puffed up two bit slanderer. The late Joe Flexer too, I suppose.

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Originally posted by Sheldon Gordon:
I just think they're wrong about Israel as is a lot of the Left.

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Originally posted by Lord Palmerston:
Come to think of it, Sheldon would probably be way more lonely as a Jewish conservative, as rightwing "opinion leaders" like David Frum and Ezra Levant don't have much of a mass base.

How come you never hear about this in the CJN, since we constantly hear about how "popular" Stockwell Day is!

http://www.pressaction.com/news/weblog/full_article/cummings06182004/

Canadian Jews, like other Canadians to a large degree, are a good deal more progressive than their southern counterparts. David Frum drew no more than one hundred people to a talk at Toronto’s flagship Synagogue Holy Blossom, while a joint talk between Palestinian and Israeli peace activists drew a crowd of over a thousand, with people being turned away and closed circuit screening in Hebrew School classrooms.

[ 04 July 2006: Message edited by: Lord Palmerston ]

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Hell would freeze over before I ever vote Conservative. I absolutely DESPISE David Frum and Ezra Levant and others who claim that Jews should vote for the Conservatives. I guess they don't care for the role of social justice in the Jewish tradition. The results of the last election demonstrate how unpopular the so-called "neocons" are in the Jewish community.

You're absolutely right about Frum not being popular. I'm in fact a member of Holy Blossom and the vast majority of the congregation is very progressive. Most of the members I know voted for NDP mayor David Miller and no one I know there voted for the Conservatives last time. Indeed, there are far, far more Toronto Jews who are interested in hearing from Israeli and Palestinian peace activists than David Frum. The vast majority are not hard-line pro-Likud supporters, they're mainly limited to the Orthodox minority.

I think the NDP is pretty reasonable on the Israel question. I don't understand why some in the party want to take an extreme pro-Palestinian position that will drive away most of the party's Jewish support. Nor do I think we should take an extreme pro-Israel position that will not only hurt us with Arab and Muslim Canadians, but even progressive Jews as well.

[ 04 July 2006: Message edited by: Sheldon Gordon ]

[ 04 July 2006: Message edited by: Sheldon Gordon ]

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Originally posted by Sheldon Gordon:

I don't care much for Barry Weisleder and his Trotskyist politics but I certainly don't think Weisleder and Flexer are/were anti-semites. I just think they're wrong about Israel as is a lot of the Left.

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But this is precisely what is pernicious about the Lightman article. It allows people who are completely disconected from reality, and who do not know what they are talking about to make blanket smears against people. It makes no specific charge, it is attached to no incidents, and no quotes.

It is just a bunch of assertions.

Disagreeing about Israel is one thing. Connecting that to antisemtism is quite another.

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Originally posted by Sheldon Gordon:

I think the NDP is pretty reasonable on the Israel question. I don't understand why some in the party want to take an extreme pro-Palestinian position that will drive away most of the party's Jewish support. Nor do I think we should take an extreme pro-Israel position that will not only hurt us with Arab and Muslim Canadians, but even progressive Jews as well.

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What kind of politics is that?

In fact that is an extremely pro-Israeli position. It is pro-Israeli because the "neutral" position supports the status quo. A status quo that is heavily balanced in favour of the Israelis, because Israel has the most powerful army in the middle east, the tenth most powerful army in the world, 200+ nuclear warheads, and the Palestinians have a few pound of c4 and some Kalishnikovs, and some homemade rockets.

This means that the IOF gets to parade around Gaza and the west bank shooting everything up at will, and the Palestinians can do nothing about it. That is the reality of the so called "neutral" position.

And if that is not opposed, it will continue.

[ 04 July 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]

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Originally posted by Sheldon Gordon:

I don't care much for Barry Weisleder and his Trotskyist politics but I certainly don't think Weisleder and Flexer are/were anti-semites. I just think they're wrong about Israel as is a lot of the Left.

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What's RIGHT about fascism, Sheldon? This is NOT a difficult issue to determine the rights and wrongs of--when you have a nation whose 'constitution' specify differing privilege levels for citizens of different races, you KNOW something's not right.

And once that nations starts invading it's neighbours, practicing torture and assasination, it's easy to see that you're dealing with a rogue.

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Originally posted by Sheldon Gordon:

I don't care much for Barry Weisleder and his Trotskyist politics but I certainly don't think Weisleder and Flexer are/were anti-semites. I just think they're wrong about Israel as is a lot of the Left.

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What's RIGHT about fascism, Sheldon? This is NOT a difficult issue to determine the rights and wrongs of--when you have a nation whose 'constitution' specify differing privilege levels for citizens of different races, you KNOW something's not right.

And once that nations starts invading it's neighbours, practicing torture and assasination, it's easy to see that you're dealing with a rogue.

I think you're right about this:

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I am absolutely sure, that whatever Judy Rebick might think about the Socialist Caucus, she does not want them slandered as antisemites, on her board.

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This is exactly the type of witchhunt I was afraid this thread would turn into. Although Critical Mass didn't specifically call them antisemites, he called them "anti-Israel" which the article conflates with antisemitism and Critical Mass agrees with. You're riding a thin line, Critical Mass. Again - keep it up, and I'll be banning this account too.

[ 05 July 2006: Message edited by: Michelle ]

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Originally posted by Wilf Day:
I see no one accusing any particular person of anti-semitism here, but I do see someone calling Israel fascist, apparently with the objective of derailing a sensible discussion. Let's stay away from Godwin's Law, eh?

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Originally posted by Cueball:
Sorry, did I say it was slander? It is libel.

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Originally posted by Sheldon Gordon:
I think the NDP is pretty reasonable on the Israel question. I don't understand why some in the party want to take an extreme pro-Palestinian position that will drive away most of the party's Jewish support. Nor do I think we should take an extreme pro-Israel position that will not only hurt us with Arab and Muslim Canadians, but even progressive Jews as well.

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Back to the topic: Ernie Lightman is a name well-known to anti-poverty activists for many years. Most recently this report includes Ernie's eloquent dissent:

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We began our involvement in the MISWAA process, optimistic and hopeful that the very different constituencies would be able to reach a consensus on ways to improve Canada’s appalling income security system, for both people on welfare and those working at, near or below minimum wage.

Unfortunately, the report’s central recommendations – two separate but related tax credit programs – focus on the latter group, at the expense of people on welfare. As a result, we are unable to endorse this key feature in the MISWAA Report.

. . there is an ideological agenda at play here – the view that people on social assistance are morally deficient and need strong incentives to coerce them into the workforce. This is the philosophy that underlay the workfare agenda of the Ontario government, an agenda that succeeded only in getting recipients off welfare and into short-term, insecure precarious employment with few or no promotion prospects. (This finding is based on the SANE research.) Single moms need childcare and the “permanently unemployables” need help: neither needs work incentives.

This is a model developed in the United States and rejected by most of the rest of the world, and it has nothing to commend it.

Why is it that “affordability” is only an issue when dealing with the lives of the poor? What about the affordability of most of the deductions, exemptions, credits, accelerated depreciations and other provisions in the personal and corporate tax systems that overwhelmingly benefit everyone except the poor? What are our collective social priorities?

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[ 05 July 2006: Message edited by: Wilf Day ]

This fear contained in the article has been expressed on many occasions by other Jewish Canadians in progressive circles.

P.S. Michelle - if you reread my post, it clearly argues that the majority of the progressive circles in Canada, in other words the vast mainstream in the NDP, Green Party and centreleft-leaning Liberal circles, is against extreme views on the Middle East, is against inciting any one-sided hatred of Israel, is against stepping over the line of demonizing Israel in isolation, is NOT anti-semitic in any shape of form.

How writing that the vast majority of the Left in Canada has nothing to do in even the remotest way with anti-semitism can be met with threat of being banned from Babble is a bit of a mystery. Maybe we should ban Jack Layton and entire NDP caucus from Babble, as well as the entire Green Party, Liberal party, CLC, my trade union etc. (apologies for the sarcasm).

But when many progressive Jews, and their allies, write of their experience of being ostracized, denigrated, yelled at and verbally abused, because of their more or less well-founded fears of anti-Semitism, denying them a hearing does not seem a fair response. I think Jewish people may know a thing or two about fears of ostracism or discrimination when they hear it, see it, or are made to feel it like a slap in the face.

And Cueball has once again clerly violated Babble policy through his repeated thoughtless verbal abuse. I assume he will be getting a warning threatening him with banning for his repeated ad hominem insults.

[ 05 July 2006: Message edited by: Critical Mass2 ]

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Actually CM2 clearly asserted that Barry Weisladers factoin in the NDP were antisemitic.

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I think that even referring to Barry Weisleder and Co. as a "faction" is being far too generous. You are talking about him and maybe three or four friends and acolytes and they probably don't even represent one tenth of one percent of the NDP membership.

When will these nutbars in the so-called socialist caucus wake up and smell the coffee. The NDP is NOT a communist party and it never will be. If they really want nationalization of all industries and a Castroite foreign policy - why don't they simply go and either join the Communist Party of Canada or found their own Socialist Workers Party. They will never be happy in the NDP.

[ 05 July 2006: Message edited by: Stockholm ]

This does not change the fact that the virulently anti-Israel Socialist Caucus is but a tiny insignificant 0.5% of the NDP, the largest leftwing politial organization in Canada.

The vast democratic majority of progressives in the NDP, Greens, unions and NGo like groups does not endorse the "Israel is the illegitimate fascist, genocidal, evil empire armpit of the universe" rhetoric.

We simply do not.

[ 05 July 2006: Message edited by: Critical Mass2 ]

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Originally posted by Critical Mass2:
And Cueball has once again clerly violated Babble policy through his repeated thoughtless verbal abuse. I assume he will be getting a warning threatening him with banning for his repeated ad hominem insults.

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I did tell him not to do that. And when I die and you become moderator, you can decide who gets banned and who doesn't. The fact that you're even here when you've been banned before at least once, and have had about a dozen accounts here shows that I'm not quick on the trigger when it comes to banning.

You are sorely testing my patience with the whole socialist caucus = antisemitism bullshit, though.

[ 05 July 2006: Message edited by: Michelle ]

2) I have no desire to be a moderator

3) Babblers, such as myself, are entitled to lodge a complaint, as I did, against people like Cueball, and you responded.

4) denying a problem, such as how many, many, many progressive Jewish activists and their allies feel they have been treated, does not make it disappear

5) point out where I ever wrote Socialist caucus = anti-semitism. I wrote extreme, virulent, anti-Israeli. All legitimate political criticisms one may or may not agree with. Some people believe groups like that do step over the line. I would not know - I try to avoid insignificant extreme grouplets like them like the plague. They poisoned the existence of almost every group I ever was part of as a student and later on.

[ 05 July 2006: Message edited by: Critical Mass2 ]

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Originally posted by Critical Mass2:
3) Babblers, such as myself, are entitled to lodge a complaint, as I did, against people like Cueball, and you responded.

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Perhaps, certain people are attempting to avoid the subject we are discussing here.

On that note, I am quite interested in the psychological phenomenon of denial, on this topic of course, but more so in general. For instance, I have 2 friends, who in the past 2-3 years, have experienced poisoned work atmospheres (in one case porn at work and open sexual harassment, the other case involved ostracising someone because of their nationality) In both cases, what they found almost as bad as the immediate experience was the denial, often the hostile denial around them, of the very existence of the problem. Either, "there was no problem", or "they were defaming others" or "it was all in their heads".

Why, when confronted with testimony from numerous sources over a period of years, with accounts of people's direct experiences or fears of something, do other people often react with denials, even hostility, trying to shut off discussion, and ostracize and deny the validity of others' experience?

Any thoughts from Babblers? Not only about thread "Jews and the Left", but in general.

It always puzzles me. It doesnt mean people are always necessarily correct in their appreciation of their experience or perceptions, but the denial of their experience is what puzzles me, the denial of the right to even discuss their experience.

Like right here in thie thread, as has happened in the past. If many progressive Jews feel this, and I have heard this feeling explained to me so many times from leftwing Jews of my acquaintance, are they correct in their perceptions? Half correct? Misinterpreting for perhaps understandable historical reasons, but still misinterpreting? And even if they are only half correct, or misinterpreting, why the attempt to shut them up? Why the immediate jumping down their throat and the immediate cries of "fascist, evil, reactionary", the desire to ostracize and deny these leftwing Jews with logn years of service in many causes membership in progressive circles? Who gets to determine membership, and who gets to determine who gets kicked out?

But mostly, why the denial of Jewish progressive experience?

[ 05 July 2006: Message edited by: Critical Mass2 ]

Those who wish to make us believe that criticism of Israel is anti-semitism and poisons the environment for them would like to have it both ways. They would be horrified at anyone who would claim that "the Jews" are responsible for the crimes of the Israeli state, and that anyone who gets mad at "the Jews" as a whole for what Israel does is anti-semitic. This I agree with. I don't think anyone should be held responsible for abuses that Israel as a state commits against Palestinians except for those people in Israel who are doing it. And yet, then they try to claim that people who are strongly critical of Israel are actually attacking all Jews and making them feel unwelcome.

Well, which is it? You can't have it both ways. You move the goalposts whenever it suits you. Basically, the rule is, you can't blame all Jews for what Israel does (which is correct), but whenever you criticize Israel, you are by extension criticizing all Jews because Israel is the Jewish state. What's the obvious conclusion? Well, to be safe from charges of anti-semitism, maybe just don't criticize Israel at all. Yeah, sorry, but that's doublespeak, and I'm just not interested in playing that game.

[ 05 July 2006: Message edited by: Michelle ]

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This does not change the fact that the virulently anti-Israel Socialist Caucus is but a tiny insignificant 0.5% of the NDP, the largest leftwing politial organization in Canada.

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Originally posted by Stockholm:
a similar 0.5% of the CPC who are sympathetic to the KKK and the Heritage Front.

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Before the 2002 presidential elections in France where the extreme right National Front came in second and made it to the runoff round, after eliminating the Scoialist Party, a number of polls published in newsmagazines such as L'Express and other major weeklies showed that among people voting Communist or Trotskyite, a large percentage would vote National Front as their second choice. The interpretation was that many people who vote for parties on the more extreme fringes (at the time, the French CP was down to less than 5% and the Trots are always around 2-4%) do not necessarily agree with the ideology (either Marxism-Leninism or neo-fascism in the Front case), they are simply attracted to "anti-system" parties or "totalitarian" ideas. For many of these voters, extreme left or extreme right made little difference, it is not the ideological content so much as the rejection of the political system that counts. The percentage of Trotskyite voters who responded the National Front was their 2nd choice was near 50%.

In France, many of the highest National Front areas are former suburbs of Paris, the famous banlieue rouge, the former Communist strongholds in the suburbs around Paris. People went straight from voting CP to voting Front Nationalwithout any transition.

But in Canada, of course this is a marginal phenomenon.

As for the post by Stockholm, I take it he was simply making a point about the small numerical (and therefore political) impact of these movements we are discussing

None of this takes away from the issue at hand though: why so many progressive Jewish Canadians feel ostracized or fear being ostracized.

There is still so much denial over this issue.

[ 05 July 2006: Message edited by: Critical Mass2 ]

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Originally posted by Stockholm:
Cheryl Gallant, Myron Thompson and Maurice Vellacott are 3% of the Tory caucus and they are total rightiwng nutbars - and I'm sure there are many more.

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I could be glib here

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Originally posted by Critical Mass2:
But when many progressive Jews, and their allies, write of their experience of being ostracized, denigrated, yelled at and verbally abused, because of their more or less well-founded fears of anti-Semitism, denying them a hearing does not seem a fair response.

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There seems to be a phenomenon on babble of certain self-proclaimed representatives of traditionally marginalized groups making unsubstantiated accusations of racism, sexism or other forms of bigotry amongst leftists.

Then when they're called on it, they just expect everyone to take them at their word because they belong to that particular group (or are at least pretending to be a member of that group, such as the man who pretended to be a woman in the feminist forum awhile back).

It amazes me that there's so many unfounded accusations and so much nitpicking over petty semantics when there are legitimate examples of real antisemitism, racism, sexism, homophobia, etc. that can be attacked. It seems that some people's priorities are way out of whack.

[ 05 July 2006: Message edited by: Secret Agent Style ]

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I said:I could be glib here and state that that means there's no socialists in the NDP, but since Jack Layton recently redefined that term from Worker ownership to Caring and sharing, it wouldn't be true.

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Snarky thread drift, but I'm just following the stream of conciousness here.

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Jimmy Brogan said:

We'll settle for coherent.

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Be careful what you wish for:

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Carole MacNeil: OK, let's play quickly word association before we go: Socialism.

Jack Layton: Well, it's a form of government, a value system that says that we should work together to achieve common benefits. It talks about the commonwealth.

Carole MacNeil: Are you a socialist?

Jack Layton: Sure and what we believe in is putting together the kind of society where we help one another as well as allow people to flourish and prosper.

Carole MacNeil: Capitalism.

Jack Layton: Well, it's an economic system that shouldn't take over our whole society. We shouldn't become simply a capitalistic society in every way.

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Whether it would be fighting Nazism in the 30s and 40s, to opposing right-wing Zionism and US Imperialism today, it's the same continuity of struggle.

It is not the left that is the problem but the narrowness by which others see issues and the their "circle of compassion" as Einstein put it.

An injustice to one, is an injustice to all.
It's really that simple.

The left's historical mission is to fight communal tendencies wherever they are found, but there is also the scalar component where some struggles are more lopsided than others. In the case of Israel, its overwhelming military power and disproportionate use of force against Palestinians cries out to the world as not just a present day injustice, but a direct and terrible repudiation to the experience of Jews who have been historically at the receiving end of oppression.

The same is true of India, where Hindutva has risen to assume a more militant, and even fascist expression of "big power" aspirations in response to a feeling of historical grievance.

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Originally posted by Michelle:

How be you let the moderator do the moderating. Calling Israel "fascist" is no more anti-semitic than calling the US "fascist" is anti-American.

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Originally posted by Cueball:

What kind of politics is that?

In fact that is an extremely pro-Israeli position. It is pro-Israeli because the "neutral" position supports the status quo.

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Originally posted by Michelle: As for me, when Judy Rebick and josh and other Jews who are against the occupation tell me that strongly opposing Israel's actions is anti-semitic and anti-Jewish, I'll believe it.

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Hee, add me to that list, Michelle. I'm Jewish, tho I'm rarely active in the discussion(s) on babble.

(I can see Secret Agent Style's head exploding right now... teehee... )

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Originally posted by bigcitygal:

My contribution to this thread is that the women I know (and I know three) who are active in Jewish Women Against the Occupation are not welcome or respected in mainstream-Jewish spaces and some lefty-Jewish spaces. Because they are so vocally against the occupation. These women feel committed to education work within these communities, which they consider their communities, and I applaud them for it.

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The NDP is a party of principle. We cannot pander for votes just for the sake of getting more votes. And anyway, the Jewish community is split over this issue. Zionists don't support the NDP anyway so there's no need to take a more pro-Israel position. Let the Liberals and Conservatives have them!

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Here we go again with this reductionist garbage. You have been told again and again and again and again that "Zionists" span the entire political spectrum. In fact, NDP MP Pat Martin (who isn't even Jewish) described himself as a "Zionist" in an interview. The number of Jews in his riding is negligible so I think we can assume that his views on the Middle East reflect his own personal principles and have nothing to do with "pandering".

There are many very leftwing Canadian Jews such as Michele Landsberg and Ernie Lightman to name just a few who would fit most people's definition of "Zionist". To me a Zionist is anyone who believes that Israel should exist in some way shape or form. By that definition, probably about 98% of Jews are "Zionist".

Yeah, as Stockholm wrote. Zionists go from religious right to the David Lewises of the labour movement to the founders of the Canadian Civil Liberties Association in the 40s and 50s to the Marxist left (the collectivist kibbutznik Hashomer Hatzair - spelling?). Nazi war criminals all of them of course.

The extreme version of anti-Israeli rhetoric does kind of fall apart under its own absurdity.

The even-handed apoproach of the Layton NDP makes sense. It always made sense. Israeli and Palestinian authorities have to abide by the law and are criticized when they fail to do so. No one needs inflammatory or hateful rhetoric - or sorry, that's wrong, some marginal groups without a shred of political influence do perhaps need to use inflammatory rhetoric and hurl prsonal abuse, maybe that's why they are still fringe groups without much influence. What was that again? Oh yeah - 0.5%

Just a thought...

[ 05 July 2006: Message edited by: Critical Mass2 ]

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URZWWVLPIE

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Originally posted by Stockholm:

I think you are confusing "Zionist" as a generic term with what could better be described as "ultra rightwing Zionists who would vote for the Likud party if they could vote in Israeli elections". Let's call them URZWWVLPIEs.

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[ 05 July 2006: Message edited by: Fidel ]

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Originally posted by Ken Burch:
Sure you want to be telling us about that one in a public forum?

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What seems to be the problem, Ken?. I'm not understanding what you're getting at.

ETA: I meant Dave Barrett and I chatted over a beer at the union hall. I didn't say I was out getting hammered with Gordon Campbell in Hawaii and decided we should belt-up before drinking driving to a Liberal party Luau. Ken, the NDP and get togethers at union halls are a common occurrence in Canada. The NDP doesn't get soft money handed to them that the two old line parties in the U.S. or here get passed to them on the sly from big banks and corporate elite. Have you ever stepped foot in a union hall, Ken?. Dave Barrett has - lots of times.

[ 05 July 2006: Message edited by: Fidel ]

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Originally posted by bigcitygal:

Hee, add me to that list, Michelle. I'm Jewish, tho I'm rarely active in the discussion(s) on babble.

(I can see Secret Agent Style's head exploding right now... teehee... )

My contribution to this thread is that the women I know (and I know three) who are active in Jewish Women Against the Occupation are not welcome or respected in mainstream-Jewish spaces and some lefty-Jewish spaces. Because they are so vocally against the occupation. These women feel committed to education work within these communities, which they consider their communities, and I applaud them for it.

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Originally posted by evernon:

JWAO from all I have seen and heard, as well as who they align with, want to see the end of a Jewish state. Hence the welcome mat has not been put out for them.

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Which part bothers you -- the dykes, or the Arabic on their sign?

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Originally posted by evernon:
Why would you ask such an abhorent question. I thought I made myself clear. I did not mention anything else other than JWAO advocate a one-stae solution that means no Jewish state.

The fact that it is you who brought up the issue of "dykes" strikes me that there may be a hint of homophobia in your question. That I would personally find offensive.

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Get off your high horse before you fall off. You said:

as well as who they align with

You didn't say what you meant, so I looked up who they aligned with and found this photo, and asked if that's what you meant? If it's not what you meant, perhaps you could enlighten us instead of resorting to innuendo.

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Many of us are against the occupation but are passionate supporters of the Jewish state.

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No activist I know "passionately supports" any state, especially states that were founded on violence, occupation, murder and oppression. I could be talking about Canada at this point, but that's thread drift.

And just to be clear, I personally am not, nor do I feel that the women I know in JWAO are not particularly upset at their marginalization in the mainstream- and lefty-Jewish communities. It's a division, and that's how it goes. They are committed to breaking down those barriers. Can that be said of the mainstream and lefty Jewish community that's "passionate" about the Jewish state?

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Originally posted by Lord Palmerston:
Canadian Jews, like other Canadians to a large degree, are a good deal more progressive than their southern counterparts. David Frum drew no more than one hundred people to a talk at Toronto’s flagship Synagogue Holy Blossom, while a joint talk between Palestinian and Israeli peace activists drew a crowd of over a thousand, with people being turned away and closed circuit screening in Hebrew School classrooms.

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Originally posted by bigcitygal:

No activist I know "passionately supports" any state, especially states that were founded on violence, occupation, murder and oppression.

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How can any peoples feel passionate about a place/state where for one to exist, another must be displaced and annihilated? It's incomprehensible to me. And deplorable.

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Originally posted by Fidel:

What seems to be the problem, Ken?. I'm not understanding what you're getting at.

ETA: I meant Dave Barrett and I chatted over a beer at the union hall. I didn't say I was out getting hammered with Gordon Campbell in Hawaii and decided we should belt-up before drinking driving to a Liberal party Luau. Ken, the NDP and get togethers at union halls are a common occurrence in Canada. The NDP doesn't get soft money handed to them that the two old line parties in the U.S. or here get passed to them on the sly from big banks and corporate elite. Have you ever stepped foot in a union hall, Ken?. Dave Barrett has - lots of times.

[ 05 July 2006: Message edited by: Fidel ]

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Originally posted by Ken Burch:

And I liked Dave Barrett, except when he stood for the federal NDP leadership. That created a lot of bad blood and may have contributed at some level to the Massacre of '93.

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I liked Dave Barrett too, except on those few occasions in government when he fell into the congenital NDP disease (governing from the right). Such as those 80,000 workers he legislated back to work in 1975 for a "cooling-off" period, which landed them into the Trudeau wage and price control legislation. Bad timing, and workers have a tendency not to forgive or forget.

Other than that, he was head and shoulders above the current crop of smiling featureless opportunists. And of course, being Jewish, he fit right into a babble thread...

All the two old line parties had on Barrett was a bit of debt buildup from provincial auto and social prograns. Campbell racks up debt though and they're happy as pigs in muck.

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Originally posted by Sheldon Gordon:

I agree with you on that. However, Simon accusing Israel supporters as fascists masquerading as leftists crosses the line, in my view.

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Supporters of fascism, which they most emphatically appear to be, Sheldon. After all, the 'chosen people' (I understand the provious expression 'chosen race' has been deprecated due to its unfortunate optics) is but an adjective or two different from 'master race'.

As to whether they are themselves fascists, I have left that to their own consciences and made no determination on the matter, despite your assertion to the contrary.

Israel is an evil state. Although its initial impetus as a national home for the jews was well-meant, it was fatally flawed ab origine with a racial supramacist doctrine, and this flaw has compounded itself over the years, until the state of Israel has found itself racapitulating many of the abuses of Nazi germany, a regime with a similar racial understanding of itself.

This is no great news; Haaretz reported just a few years ago that Israeli commanders were studying the Nazi assault on the Warsaw ghetto in preparation for it's own operations against Palestinian refugee camps.

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Originally posted by S1m0n:

Supporters of fascism, which they most emphatically appear to be, Sheldon. After all, the 'chosen people' (I understand the provious expression 'chosen race' has been deprecated due to its unfortunate optics) is but an adjective or two different from 'master race'.

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What "previous expression" of "chosen race" are you referring to? I've never seen that in my life, nor does it have any equivalent in Hebrew, which is the origin of the "chosen people" concept (ata bechartanu mi'kol ha'amim, ahavta otanu, etc. etc.).

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Originally posted by unionist:

What "previous expression" of "chosen race" are you referring to? I've never seen that in my life, nor does it have any equivalent in Hebrew, which is the origin of the "chosen people" concept (ata bechartanu mi'kol ha'amim, ahavta otanu, etc. etc.).

Please explain while I still have my temper.

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Here's Mohandas K. Ghandi employing the term in 1938:

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And now a word to the Jews in Palestine. I have no doubt that they are going about it the wrong way. The Palestine of the Biblical conception is not geographical tract. It is in their hearts. But if they must look to the Palestine of geography as their national home, it is wrong to enter it under the shadow of the British gun. A religious act cannot be performed with the aid of the bayonet or the bomb. They can settle in Palestine only by the goodwill of the Arabs. They should seek to convert the Arab heart. The same God rules the Arab heart, who rules the Jewish heart. They can offer satyagraha in front of the Arabs and offer themselves to be shot or thrown in to the Dead Sea without raising a little finger against them. They will find the world opinion in the their favor in their religious aspiration. There are hundreds of ways of reasoning with the Arabs, if they will only discard the help of the British bayonet. As it is, they are co-sharers with the British in despoiling a people who have done no wrong to them.

I am not defending the Arab excesses. I wish they had chosen the way of non-violence in resisting what they rightly regarded as an unwarrantable encroachment upon their country. But according to the accepted canons of right and wrong, nothing can be said against the Arab resistance in the face of overwhelming odds.

Let the Jews who claim to be the chosen race prove their title by choosing the way of non-violence for vindicating their position on earth.

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Clearly, this is a term which held currency in zionist circles of the pre-war era, which is exactly the context in which he is employing it. Since the Nazis, it's use has been curtailed, for exactly the reasons I identified. However, It appears regularly in the literature of the nineteenth and early 20th centuries. I can't speak for any parallel term in hebrew, but only for what I've seen in english.

However, it's also true that many other groups have also made the identical assertion--the zionists are not alone.